I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.

I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.

My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.

I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
across the range.

To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.

I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)

PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.

thanks,
Dave Jacobowitz
jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- come

Go over 80 to Reno and down 395 to Bishop.

Please don't use abbrvtns for airports when the rest of us just have to look
them up.

I wouldn't take Tioga pass over the Sierra in a single engine aircraft for all
the avgas in Texas.

Jim

(looks to be less
->than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH)



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

On 10 Jun 2004 16:27:12 -0700, (Dave
Jacobowitz) wrote:

>I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
>Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.
>
>I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
>checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.
>
>My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
>believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
>calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
>than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
>minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.
>
>I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
>across the range.
>
>To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
>the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
>aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.
>
>I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
>Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)
>
>PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.

I cannot speak for the mountain crossing, as I haven't mountain flown
in my 180. But I do fly at and above 10kft regularly, often with
800lbs of useful (approx 200 short of gross).

In the summer if the air is smooth, you can get to 14k, but it will
take a long time. Near 14k, climb rate will be down in the range of
1-200fpm. Any turbulence can bring the climb rate down lower (or
negative) making it take forever to get to 14k.

-Nathan

Nathan Young > wrote in
:

> On 10 Jun 2004 16:27:12 -0700, (Dave
> Jacobowitz) wrote:
>
>>I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
>>Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.
>>
>>I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
>>checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.
>>
>>My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
>>believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
>>calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
>>than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
>>minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.
>>
>>I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
>>across the range.
>>
>>To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
>>the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
>>aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.
>>
>>I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
>>Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)
>>
>>PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.
>
> I cannot speak for the mountain crossing, as I haven't mountain flown
> in my 180. But I do fly at and above 10kft regularly, often with
> 800lbs of useful (approx 200 short of gross).
>
> In the summer if the air is smooth, you can get to 14k, but it will
> take a long time. Near 14k, climb rate will be down in the range of
> 1-200fpm. Any turbulence can bring the climb rate down lower (or
> negative) making it take forever to get to 14k.
>
> -Nathan
>

Carefully work out the density altitude for the expected enroute
temperatures.

I few years ago, I departed San Bernandino around 4 PM. The OAT on the
ground was 125! I went via the Cajon Pass to V137 towards Palmdale. I
could NOT climb over 8,500'. I was solo in an Archer with full tanks.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

I've flown over Mammoth enroute to Oakland on a cross country from the
Washington, DC area. I crossed the Sierras near Mammoth at 15,000
feet, and had no desire to do it lower. That area is a relatively
high point in the Sierras -- both north and south are lower terrain.

Why not cross at Tahoe and head south? It would still be a lot faster
than driving. There is a lot to be said for a robust route -- one
that is suable under a variety of weather conditions and that does not
require O2. A longer but even easier route would be to head south and
cross around Palmdale.

Paul

Thanks, everyone for the advice. I will rethink my route. I will look
at a route that crosses over near Tahoe and then heads down on the
eastern side.

Flying the passes sounded like fun, but perhaps I'll try it sometime
in a more capable aircraft not loaded to max gross, and perhaps with
an O2 system (which I was hoping not to have to invest in for this
trip)

-- dave j


(Paul Hamilton) wrote in message >...
> I've flown over Mammoth enroute to Oakland on a cross country from the
> Washington, DC area. I crossed the Sierras near Mammoth at 15,000
> feet, and had no desire to do it lower. That area is a relatively
> high point in the Sierras -- both north and south are lower terrain.
>
> Why not cross at Tahoe and head south? It would still be a lot faster
> than driving. There is a lot to be said for a robust route -- one
> that is suable under a variety of weather conditions and that does not
> require O2. A longer but even easier route would be to head south and
> cross around Palmdale.
>
> Paul

The pass just south of Tioga is beautiful, or Tioga itself.
The nice thing is that if you do have an engine problem,
Tuolomine is right down there. In fact you'd be in better
shape just there than earlier in the flight over the mountains,
or on the other routes suggested. (Landing on I-80?
Well, maybe). The first time I did it it almost literally
took my breath away as suddenly the ground disappears
from under you. I recommend 13500, which will keep
you 2000 AGL and above (though not much) the
surrounding peaks.

Obviously not to be done if there's significant wind
(I hit a rotor once, and while it was instructive I'm
not in a big hurry to do it again).

John

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
> Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.
>
> I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
> checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.
>
> My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
> believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
> calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
> than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
> minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.
>
> I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
> across the range.
>
> To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
> the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
> aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.
>
> I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
> Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)
>
> PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.
>
> thanks,
> Dave Jacobowitz
> jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- come

Argh!!! This is starting to drive me crazy. I cannot for the life of
me figure out how I want to do this flight.

Tioga pass or nearby is very tempting. It looks spectacular, and the
route is nearly as short as possible. ... but 13.5k in a very nearly
max gross PA28-180... I dunno. Could be fine. I'll know when I'm in
the air. Also, I have no O2 system. Did you go with an oxygen system?
Going up to 13500, I'm legal for up to 30 minutes, but is it smart?

What's killing me is how lame the other options are:

1. take I80, I guess, all the way to Reno, then south to KBIH. It's
getting close to a 3 hr trip that way.

2. up to TVL, then southeast through "Luther Pass," then east to
interstate 395 and down. Longer, and not much lower.

3. wimp-out: almost to Bakersfield, then over much lower terrain.
Much, much, much longer. Probably would do fuel/bio stop on that one.

Of course, nobody on this group is going to tell me what to do, and
that's how it should be. I need to make up my own mind. But more info
is certainly better.

I wish I had some flight planning software with terrain in it. It's
actually kind of tricky to see what flying a pass will really be like
by looking at a sectional.

-- dave j
--



"John Harper" > wrote in message news:<1087281711.160331@sj-nntpcache-3>...
> The pass just south of Tioga is beautiful, or Tioga itself.
> The nice thing is that if you do have an engine problem,
> Tuolomine is right down there. In fact you'd be in better
> shape just there than earlier in the flight over the mountains,
> or on the other routes suggested. (Landing on I-80?
> Well, maybe). The first time I did it it almost literally
> took my breath away as suddenly the ground disappears
> from under you. I recommend 13500, which will keep
> you 2000 AGL and above (though not much) the
> surrounding peaks.
>
> Obviously not to be done if there's significant wind
> (I hit a rotor once, and while it was instructive I'm
> not in a big hurry to do it again).
>
> John
>
> "Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
> > Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.
> >
> > I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
> > checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.
> >
> > My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
> > believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
> > calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
> > than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
> > minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.
> >
> > I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
> > across the range.
> >
> > To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
> > the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
> > aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.
> >
> > I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
> > Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)
> >
> > PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Dave Jacobowitz
> > jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- come

Dave,

Sorry I didn't post earlier; I thought someone would mention my favorite
route, but I guess not!

I fly my Cardinal RG regularly between Palo Alto and Mammoth, at 11,500.
The easiest way is to go over Mammoth Pass. From Palo Alto it's 080
degrees (more or less) to the bottom of the upper San Joaquin River
drainage; on the sectional you can see V230 from Friant goes along this
route. It is really no problem. Once you see Mammoth Mountain, you can
go either immediately to the right (Mammoth Pass) or the left (Minaret
Summit); I generally go to the left to avoid overflying the town.

On the way, when you are talking with Oakland Center (121.25 on the east
side of the Central Valley, south of Yosemite), they will ask you if you
are familiar with the terrain. If you say no, they will say, "in event
of lost communication, consider radar services terminated, frequency
change will be approved." You can make their lives easier by saying
that you're familiar with the terrain and the lost comm procedure.

Bishop can be *really* hot; even when the airport elevation is only
4120, density altitude can be much higher.

Have fun!

Bruce

--
Bruce Horn, Chief Technical Officer, Marketocracy, Inc.

In your original post, you required a 2,000 foot comfort zone over the
ridge. Unless you are willing to relax that requirement some, take the I-80
route to Reno. Age and physical condition play a large role in hypoxia
onset -- 13.5K is over my personal limit without supplemental O2. If you are
willing to lower your crossing altitude, look for Mammoth Pass, just north
of KBIH.
Suggestion -- In the AM hours, be prepared for the katabatic air flow
down the east face of the Sierra. On the way east ride it down and don't try
to hold altitude. Going west... well, climb high and approach the ridge on a
45-degree angle prepared to turn away.

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Argh!!! This is starting to drive me crazy. I cannot for the life of
> me figure out how I want to do this flight.
>

> route is nearly as short as possible. ... but 13.5k in a very nearly
> max gross PA28-180... I dunno. Could be fine....
> Going up to 13500, I'm legal for up to 30 minutes, but is it smart?

13.5 I think is the ceiling and that is at standard temp/pressure.
Have you checked out the temperatures at that altitude. They
very well might be above that temperature so you might only be able to
ge up to 12000 MSL.

Gerald

I faced a similar problem when I took the SR20 by this
route. Although I was below gross, the climb rate was
pitiful even at reasonable altitides (this is the same plane
that got an oil overtemp trying to climb out of LAS).
13500 on a summer day was above its ceiling, so getting
there was a slow business at 100-200 ft/min for
the last thousand feet or so. otoh you've got plenty
of time to get there since you have the whole central
valley and foothills. And if really you see you're not going
to get enough altitude, you can always turn tail and do
the Bakersfield thing. You'll have lost some time but
hey, you'll have tried (obviously assumes you can carry
enough fuel for the backup to be viable).

My take would be: if you are just flying to get there,
wimp out and go via Bakersfield. If you like flying
for the enjoyment of it, try one of the Tioga routes,
and be preprade to wimp out if you have to.

One other tip: if you are flying on the limit of O2
altitudes, use the deep breathing trick. It's been
written up several times, though I don't remember
where. Take long deep breaths, slower than normal.
I have an oximeter in the plane and this increases
my O2 saturation by 5-7 points.

John

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Argh!!! This is starting to drive me crazy. I cannot for the life of
> me figure out how I want to do this flight.
>
> Tioga pass or nearby is very tempting. It looks spectacular, and the
> route is nearly as short as possible. ... but 13.5k in a very nearly
> max gross PA28-180... I dunno. Could be fine. I'll know when I'm in
> the air. Also, I have no O2 system. Did you go with an oxygen system?
> Going up to 13500, I'm legal for up to 30 minutes, but is it smart?
>
> What's killing me is how lame the other options are:
>
> 1. take I80, I guess, all the way to Reno, then south to KBIH. It's
> getting close to a 3 hr trip that way.
>
> 2. up to TVL, then southeast through "Luther Pass," then east to
> interstate 395 and down. Longer, and not much lower.
>
> 3. wimp-out: almost to Bakersfield, then over much lower terrain.
> Much, much, much longer. Probably would do fuel/bio stop on that one.
>
> Of course, nobody on this group is going to tell me what to do, and
> that's how it should be. I need to make up my own mind. But more info
> is certainly better.
>
> I wish I had some flight planning software with terrain in it. It's
> actually kind of tricky to see what flying a pass will really be like
> by looking at a sectional.
>
> -- dave j
> --
>
>
>
> "John Harper" > wrote in message
news:<1087281711.160331@sj-nntpcache-3>...
> > The pass just south of Tioga is beautiful, or Tioga itself.
> > The nice thing is that if you do have an engine problem,
> > Tuolomine is right down there. In fact you'd be in better
> > shape just there than earlier in the flight over the mountains,
> > or on the other routes suggested. (Landing on I-80?
> > Well, maybe). The first time I did it it almost literally
> > took my breath away as suddenly the ground disappears
> > from under you. I recommend 13500, which will keep
> > you 2000 AGL and above (though not much) the
> > surrounding peaks.
> >
> > Obviously not to be done if there's significant wind
> > (I hit a rotor once, and while it was instructive I'm
> > not in a big hurry to do it again).
> >
> > John
> >
> > "Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I'm thinking of taking myself and three others (littlish people) to
> > > Bishop next weekend in a Cherokee 180.
> > >
> > > I've limited mountain flying experience, but have had an intructor
> > > checkout for it and have read a few books on the subject.
> > >
> > > My assessment is that the aircraft's service ceiling (13,700, I
> > > believe) and loading (about 200 lb under gross by my first-swag
> > > calculations) will get us over the highest terrain (looks to be less
> > > than 11,500 if I carefuly fly the pass near KMMH) with my personal
> > > minimum of 2000 AGL over mtns.
> > >
> > > I won't do the trip if there appears to be significant wind blowing
> > > across the range.
> > >
> > > To me, this says this flight is possible. It's not all the margin in
> > > the world, but it's adequate. I'd prefer to be higher, and maybe the
> > > aircraft will get us there, but it seems like it'd be high enough.
> > >
> > > I'd like to hear someone else's ideas, though. I'm in the "Killing
> > > Zone," you know. ;) (260 hrs, PP-ASEL, IR)
> > >
> > > PS -- plan is to do this flight early am, arrive BIH 9-10.
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Dave Jacobowitz
> > > jacobowitz73 -at- yahoo -dot- come